Home | About | RSS Feed | Contact and Publicity Guidelines | Comment Policy the Law, the Universe, and Everything 


advertise-here4


Slip Opinions


Denial of tenure case at Georgetown raises thorny issues .  LAC

NYT editorial quotes Dan Solove likening NSA snooping to Seurat art: one small dot seems trivial, but together a portrait emerges. Here. (LAC)

Warren Buffett never negotiates on price, always makes his highest offer first.  LAC

An elite decline? (kw)

Unanswered Questions (kw)

Most under-appreciated thing about Warren Buffett: he built Berkshire to last well beyond him.  (LAC, at BRK annual meeting via Motley Fool, here.)

University governance as a new topic of public discussion.

An unusual profile of Mary Anne Franks (kw)

Aggressive copyright litigation run amok. (fp)

USA Today's Matt Krantz quoting me on Warren Buffett joining Twitter.  (LAC)


Our Podcast

Subscribe to Law Talk


  • Posts by Author

  • Categories

  • Archives


  • Recent Comments


    • Aaron Zelinsky on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Brett Bellmore on Google Challenges Gag Orders Relating to Surveillance Programs, Citing First Amendment

    • Steph Tai on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Aaron Zelinsky on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Steph Tai on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Aaron Zelinsky on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Steph Tai on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Charlie Naegle on Google Challenges Gag Orders Relating to Surveillance Programs, Citing First Amendment

    • Michael Dorff on Questioning Performance Pay

    • Sandra Sperino on Sole Motives and University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center v. Nassar

    • Michal Zapendowski on What Should a Judge's Reversal Rate Be?

    • Orin Kerr on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • AP on Unintended Consequences of Scholarship

    • Howard Wasserman on Grading Lessons from Cognitive Psychology

    • Lawrence Cunningham on Unintended Consequences of Scholarship
  •  

    Site Meter

    About the Blog

    Concurring Opinions is a multiple authored, general interest legal blog.

    (Image: Wikicommons)

The ABA’s Ugly Table Fetish

posted by Dave Hoffman

The ABA's Proposed Table Is About As Ugly As This One

TaxProf reports on the ABA’s possible move toward more substantively revealing employment statistics.  Key to the change would be a table that each law school would have to post on its website.  The Table would list salaries and employment of law school graduates, and break it down into quartile percentiles.

What’s useful about this kind of disclosure is that it avoids the problem of misleading means and medians in salary– itself caused by missing data. That is, law schools aren’t able to collect salary information for each graduate. When schools calculate mean/median salaries, they exclude missing graduates, and thereby overemphasize the importance of high earners. As the relevant committee explained:

“Schools receive salary information from a fairly small percentage of graduates. Graduates reporting their salaries are skewed towards those earning the most . . . A school that touts median salary information, without appropriate qualifiers, is misleading prospective students. We propose that all salary information clearly indicate the number of respondents and percentage of all graduates . . . We would not require schools to disclose any salary information for a given category unless there are at least five respondents.”

To the extent you think that law schools are bad actors, and that the market won’t motivate disclosure, this is a good reform.  I have a different perspective: it is a bad idea for an accreditation agency to micromanage the internal workings of law school business, especially when the data is then connected to the machinations of a deeply flawed, secretive and corrupting ranking magazine.  I have particular doubts about disclosure of salary data.  It seems to me that this is a classic example of a liberal policy that might have unintended consequences – salary collusion between market makers in the entry level job market.  It’s also the case, as I am about to discuss in a Conglomerate Masters Forum, that the ABA’s meddling in the internal affairs of the schools can be seen as (yet another) attempt to increase the price of legal education & resulting consumer costs, while protecting incumbents.  To be clear: law schools should be pressured to disclose more about outcomes (and inputs).  But when that pressure comes from an accrediting agency that happens to be a guild, you have to worry about what’s happening behind the scenes.

However, let’s pretend like this exact disclosure requirement is welfare maximizing. How should it proceed?  The ABA wants  to mandate that schools produce & display a very, very ugly table.  But, for Tufte’s sake, why?  All of the information in that table could be better displayed in figures – Henderson’s bimodal distribution (using # of graduates on the y-axis), and then a few bar charts displaying where people work.  I am quite confident that this is possible because I am putting the finishing touches on Temple’s self-study accreditation document, which liberally uses figures – instead of tables – to display data on employment, revenues, debt, and admissions.  As Epstein, Martin and Boyd explained, Tables are ugly and are terrible tools to communicate data, especially summary statistics.   If the ABA thinks that communicating this data is important, it should mandate that the data be presented in a clear way, not in an ominous, busy, 11 (!) column Table that no one, ever, will read.

Shucks, it is as if the ABA wants to pretend to care about disclosure, so as to maintain its accreditation monopoly, but to implement sunshine in a form that effectively destroys its utility.


 March 20, 2011 at 2:17 pm   Posted in: Law School, Law School (Teaching)   Print This Post Print This Post

Responses (9)

  1. Gato Points - March 21, 2011 at 4:26 am

    I really need to read these post before I forward them to everyone. Just reading the headline and seeing the picture I though the story was that ABA was literally changing their decor. Like the TSA, I should’ve checked more before I jumped to my conclusion: http://jonathanturley.org/2011/03/20/irs-to-conduct-abortion-audits/#comment-214159

    Apologies…

  2. Gato Points - March 21, 2011 at 4:26 am

    http://lawblog.legalmatch.com/2011/03/14/why-going-through-airport-security-is-still-better-than-being-muslim-in-america/

    Sorry wrong link…

  3. James Grimmelmann - March 21, 2011 at 6:29 am

    I agree that the table is ugly. But it is a standard format. If every law school fills it out in this form, then it becomes much easier for anyone to take the raw data and create good visualizations of it. It’s better to put the simple informational mandate on the law schools, and leave it up to the wider “market” of interested people to come up with the compelling visualizations that make it meaningful.

    Even better would be if the ABA required each law school to publish the data using a standard XML schema, and then just made available to everyone the XML file containing each year’s information from the tables.

  4. dave hoffman - March 21, 2011 at 7:38 am

    James,
    But that seems precisely wrong to me. Creating a disclosure standard for lots of private firms that requires (or assumes) the existence of some other third party intermediary to be useful is bad policy. Let the firms compete on how to best display the information – if you want – and let prospective applicants thereby understand how important salary and employment outcomes are for each school.

    Also, why these particular slices of outcomes (quartiles? dividing between firms based on # of attorneys at the firms)? If the ABA really wants to meddle, why not force schools to survey all grads at a year and ask if they are happy with their jobs and if they make enough to cover expenses and debt. That would be just as meaningful. Which is to say, not very.

  5. anon - March 21, 2011 at 10:36 am

    “Let the firms compete on how to best display the information – if you want – and let prospective applicants thereby understand how important salary and employment outcomes are for each school.”

    Sorry, I don’t follow. This is precisely the reason the ABA is talking about disclosure. Because law schools have no incentive to provide adequate disclosures.

  6. Dave Hoffman - March 21, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    Anon,

    1. I don’t know why you think law schools have “no incentive to provide adequate disclosures.” Aren’t they competing for applicants? Assuming that the market is moving toward higher demand for information like this, I think supply would increase too.

    2. But even if that weren’t true, my point is that law schools can compete on how to disclose, with the ABA providing a baseline of the substantive content and a requirement of fair display. The requirement, perversely, makes it all but impossible to understand the material because it is buried in an enormous, multi-factorial, enormous table. Who does that help?

  7. anon - March 21, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    1. Yes, law schools are competing for applicants That is why the incentive is to distort numbers to make the school look better to applicants.

    2. Complexity is not a virtue when it comes to reporting, but neither is utter simplicity. Both can skew reality. Why not figure out a clear set of guidelines that provide information prospective students are interested in, and do it in a precise a clear way? Of course, some people will complain, but at least prospective students will have, in theory, a more accurate picture of each school.

  8. James Grimmelmann - March 22, 2011 at 12:05 am

    Dave, it’s only your final paragraph that I have an issue with: my argument is that if disclosure is to be mandated, than it should be raw-data disclosure. Let the law schools compete on the pretty pictures as well if they want, but raw data is the necessary baseline to enable third parties to get into the visualization and presentation game.

    Government open data efforts are demonstrating the wisdom of the “If you build it, they will come” approach. See the Princeton Government Data and the Invisible Hand paper. Given scarce resources, it’s better to provide standardized data than polished visualizations, because it acts as an input to an open innovative ecosystem.

  9. Dave Hoffman - March 22, 2011 at 9:18 am

    James,
    Totally fair, and I think I agree with you. The ABA could fairly require disclosure of an xml file to some central authority. It could also require schools to display the data on their websites, in whatever form the school deemed appropriate, so long as it was not misleading or obscuring.

    The point is really that tables like these are the least useful form of disclosure (to no disclosure). The seem like they are precise and clear, but actually they are hard to read and often get ignored.

Leave a Reply

Spam protection by WP Captcha-Free


  • « Previous post
  • Next post »

Authors

Daniel J. Solove
Kaimipono Wenger
Dave Hoffman
Frank Pasquale
Deven Desai
Danielle Citron
Lawrence Cunningham
Sarah Waldeck
Jaya Ramji-Nogales
Solangel Maldonado
Gerard Magliocca

Guests

Kelli A. Alces
Andrew Blair-Stanek
Ryan Calo
Katie Eyer
Stephen Galoob
Woodrow Hartzog
Claire Hill
William McGeveran
David L. Schwartz
Babak Siavoshy
Charles K. Whitehead
Aaron Zelinsky


















Previous Guests

Michael Abramowicz
Michelle Adams
Robert Ahdieh
Marvin Ammori
Michelle Anderson
Laura Appleman
Derek Bambauer
Taunya Lovell Banks
Ann Bartow
Steven Bellovin
Adam Benforado
Gaia Bernstein
Francesca Bignami
Josh Blackman
Joseph Blocher
Jeremy Blumenthal
Kathleen Boozang
Bruce Boyden
Donald Braman
Khiara Bridges
Al Brophy
Neil H. Buchanan
Bill Burke-White
Scott Burris
Paul Butler
Ryan Calo
Naomi Cahn
Anupam Chander
Miriam Cherry
Jack Chin
Glenn Cohen
Gabriella Coleman
Jennifer Collins
Caroline Mala Corbin
Thomas Crocker
andré douglas pond cummings
Allison Danner
Laura DeNardis
Brannon Denning
Deven Desai
Mike Dimino
Mark Edwards
Maxine Eichner
Jessica Erickson
David Fagundes
Lisa Fairfax
Joshua Fairfield
Christine Haight Farley
Kim Ferzan
Dan Filler
Mary Anne Franks
Susan Freiwald
Michael Froomkin
Amanda Frost
Brian Frye
Timothy Glynn
Rachel Godsil
Eric Goldman
Kyle Graham
David Gray
Craig Green
Tristin Green
Jonathan Hafetz
Vivian E. Hamilton
Meredith Harbach
Michelle Harner
Angela Harris
Jeffrey Harrison
Hosea Harvey
Erica Hashimoto
Jennifer Hendricks
Carissa Hessick
Laura Heymann
Robert Hillman
Gilbert A. Holmes
Nicole Huberfeld
Christine Hurt
Darian Ibrahim
Sherrilyn Ifill
John Ip
Shavar Jeffries
Kevin Johnson
Kristin Johnson
Jeff Jonas
Courtney Joslin
Dan Kahan
Jeffrey Kahn
Brian Kalt
Sam Kamin
Michael Kang
Chimène Keitner
Alicia Kelly
Orin Kerr
Jay Kesten
Nancy Kim
Heidi Kitrosser
Adam Kolber
Russell Korobkin
Alex Kreit
Anita S. Krishnakumar
Susan Kuo
Greg Lastowka
Sarah Lawsky
Youngjae Lee
Margaret Lewis
Erik Lillquist
Jeff Lipshaw
Jonathan Lipson
Jacqueline Lipton
Matthew Lister
Joseph Liu
Michael Madison
Tayyab Mahmud
Kevin Noble Maillard
Solangel Maldonado
Jason Mazzone
Linda McClain
William McGeveran
Salil Mehra
Carrie Menkel-Meadow
Max Minzner
Viva Moffat
Scott Moss
Eric Muller
Janai Nelson
Jaya Ramji-Nogales
Helen Norton
Elizabeth Nowicki
Paul Ohm
Angela Onwuachi-Willing
David Opderback
David Orentlicher
Michael O'Shea
Kristen Osenga
Mary-Rose Papandrea
Rafael Pardo
Marcy Peek
Eduardo Peñalver
Robert Percival
Michael J. Pitts
Marc Poirier
David Post
Amanda Pustilnik
Shruti Rana
Geoffrey Rapp
Meredith Render
William Reynolds
Neil Richards
Lori Ringhand
Alice Ristroph
Marc Roark
Brishen Rogers
Sasha Romanosky
Aaron Saiger
Tuan Samahon
Susan Scafidi
David Schleicher
David Schraub
Paul Secunda
Lea Shaver
Jonathan Siegel
Jessica Silbey
Peter Smith
Judd Sneirson
Adam Steinman
Charles Sullivan
Rick Swedloff
Peter Swire
Olivier Sylvain
Steph Tai
Andrew Taslitz
Robert Tsai
Jenia Turner
Joseph Turow
Steve Vladeck
Ari Waldman
Spencer Weber Waller
Howard Wasserman
Melissa Waters
Elizabeth A. Wilson
Frank Wu
Alfred Yen
Corey Yung
David Zaring
Timothy Zick
Michael Zimmer
Jonathan Zittrain

Ownership

Concurring Opinions is a
general-interest legal blog
operated by Concurring
Opinions LLC, a Pennsylvania
Limited Liability Corporation.

Blogroll

Above the Law
Access to Justice
ACS Blog
Althouse
Balkinization
Becker-Posner Blog
BlackProf
BoingBoing
Chicago Law Faculty Blog
Conglomerate
CrimLaw
Crime & Federalism
CrimProf Blog
Crooked Timber
Derechoalderecho
Discourse.net
Dorf on Law
Election Law
Emergent Chaos
The Faculty Lounge
Feminist Law Profs
43(B)log
Freakonomics Blog
Freedom to Tinker
Google Blogoscoped
How Appealing
Ideoblog
Info/Law
Instapundit.com
Juris Novus
Jurisdynamics
Just Books
Law and Humanities Blog
Law and Letters
Law Librarian Blog
Legal Profession Blog
Legal Theory Blog
Legal Times Blog
Leiter Reports
Brian Leiter's Law School Reports
Lessig Blog
Madisonian Theory
Media Law Blog
Mirror of Justice
The Moderate Voice
National Security Advisors
Opinio Juris
Point of Law
PrawfsBlawg
Privacy and Security Training
ProfessorBainbridge.com
Property Prof Blog
Red Tape Chronicles
The Right Coast
Schneier on Security
SCOTUSBlog
Security Dilemmas
Sentencing Law and Policy
Simple Justice
Sivacracy.net
The Situationist
Susan Crawford
TalkLeft
Talking Points Memo
TaxProf Blog
TeachPrivacy Blog
Tech & Marketing Law
Truth on the Market
Volokh Conspiracy
WorkPlace Prof Blog
WSJ Law Blog
Wonkette
The Yin Blog


© Concurring Opinions

Powered by WordPress