Comments on: Does Time Magazine Approve of Cheating and Lying? http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/08/does-time-magazine-approve-of-cheating-and-lying.html The Law, the Universe, and Everything Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:44:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: D.J http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/08/does-time-magazine-approve-of-cheating-and-lying.html/comment-page-1#comment-66833 D.J Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:54:48 +0000 http://www.concurringopinions.com/?p=19257#comment-66833 What raced my mind when I first read his article is that Joel pointed out a concept that we refuse to accept, but is true deep inside. As a high school student, cheating, is inevitable once for example, the teacher leaves the classroom when the tests are laid out. In highly stressed moments where we, the students, are forced to worry about 6 different subjects in school, we want to, and are expected to cheat, to borrow ideas, and most importantly, even the teachers seek this of us, cause they know it's impossible to be bombarded with 6 different homework assignments, tests, projects, essays, and others I am now too disgusted to mention. We cheat, we lie, we sin, and that's the beauty and the underlying truth about humans. Or do we consider ourselves perfect? Of course Joel's advocate for cheating does make us readers very uncomfortable and want to oppose him, but that's his triumph of his writing strategies: to hit us where no one expected. And guess what? He's successful, much more than any of us I presume because he has many enemies. ;) What raced my mind when I first read his article is that Joel pointed out a concept that we refuse to accept, but is true deep inside. As a high school student, cheating, is inevitable once for example, the teacher leaves the classroom when the tests are laid out. In highly stressed moments where we, the students, are forced to worry about 6 different subjects in school, we want to, and are expected to cheat, to borrow ideas, and most importantly, even the teachers seek this of us, cause they know it’s impossible to be bombarded with 6 different homework assignments, tests, projects, essays, and others I am now too disgusted to mention. We cheat, we lie, we sin, and that’s the beauty and the underlying truth about humans. Or do we consider ourselves perfect?

Of course Joel’s advocate for cheating does make us readers very uncomfortable and want to oppose him, but that’s his triumph of his writing strategies: to hit us where no one expected. And guess what? He’s successful, much more than any of us I presume because he has many enemies. ;)

]]> By: A.J. Sutter http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/08/does-time-magazine-approve-of-cheating-and-lying.html/comment-page-1#comment-65056 A.J. Sutter Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:28:10 +0000 http://www.concurringopinions.com/?p=19257#comment-65056 On reading the piece, it seems more than partially tongue-in-cheek -- it's plainly very much so. E.g., "But I do want — and fully expect — to one day see a baseball hit out of a major league stadium and into another major league stadium," and "Should we require [athletes] to read the books they supposedly write? Where will the madness end?" Even the part about high-school cheating, while definitely gray, is less extreme than it sounds from this post: a teacher never changed his multiple-choice exams from year to year. My Ivy League college kept volumes of past exams for many courses available in its libraries; sometimes profs repeated questions. My "accounting for lawyers" prof also gave us advance notice he was taking all his questions from old C.P.A. exams, for which answer keys were publicly available. Less gray than Stein's case, perhaps -- but hard to believe the h.s. teacher wasn't aware he was passively enabling this behavior with his own perennial laziness. The I.R.S. matter is certainly more troubling, I agree. Nonetheless, I definitely didn't interpret the column to mean that "Stein seems to suggest that steroids and other 'cheating' tactics in sports should not be scorned" -- rather, his more serious point seems to be to attack the hypocrisy of people who scorn cheating in sports but tolerate it in other areas of life. Maybe his I.R.S. story was his attempt to come clean on that point, i.e. to avoid being hypocritical himself, even though by telling the story with the same pumped-up irony as the rest of the piece he did make it sound as if he's advocating tax fraud. I concede that Stein's attempt to channel Jonathan Swift is not fully successful. But when viewed in context, the main problem with the piece seems somewhat less a matter of caddish ethics and a good deal more one of questionable taste. On reading the piece, it seems more than partially tongue-in-cheek — it’s plainly very much so. E.g., “But I do want — and fully expect — to one day see a baseball hit out of a major league stadium and into another major league stadium,” and “Should we require [athletes] to read the books they supposedly write? Where will the madness end?”

Even the part about high-school cheating, while definitely gray, is less extreme than it sounds from this post: a teacher never changed his multiple-choice exams from year to year. My Ivy League college kept volumes of past exams for many courses available in its libraries; sometimes profs repeated questions. My “accounting for lawyers” prof also gave us advance notice he was taking all his questions from old C.P.A. exams, for which answer keys were publicly available. Less gray than Stein’s case, perhaps — but hard to believe the h.s. teacher wasn’t aware he was passively enabling this behavior with his own perennial laziness.

The I.R.S. matter is certainly more troubling, I agree. Nonetheless, I definitely didn’t interpret the column to mean that “Stein seems to suggest that steroids and other ‘cheating’ tactics in sports should not be scorned” — rather, his more serious point seems to be to attack the hypocrisy of people who scorn cheating in sports but tolerate it in other areas of life. Maybe his I.R.S. story was his attempt to come clean on that point, i.e. to avoid being hypocritical himself, even though by telling the story with the same pumped-up irony as the rest of the piece he did make it sound as if he’s advocating tax fraud. I concede that Stein’s attempt to channel Jonathan Swift is not fully successful. But when viewed in context, the main problem with the piece seems somewhat less a matter of caddish ethics and a good deal more one of questionable taste.

]]> By: Jonathan H. Adler http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/08/does-time-magazine-approve-of-cheating-and-lying.html/comment-page-1#comment-65048 Jonathan H. Adler Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:42:11 +0000 http://www.concurringopinions.com/?p=19257#comment-65048 I'm with Mr. O'Donnell. I think this is a very valuable post, save for the refusal to call Stein what he is. He may well be "lovely," and I accept the notion that some things we label as "cheating" are not necessarily wrong, but I also think one could conclude from the article that he is immature, unethical cad. JHA I’m with Mr. O’Donnell. I think this is a very valuable post, save for the refusal to call Stein what he is. He may well be “lovely,” and I accept the notion that some things we label as “cheating” are not necessarily wrong, but I also think one could conclude from the article that he is immature, unethical cad.

JHA

]]> By: Patrick S. O'Donnell http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2009/08/does-time-magazine-approve-of-cheating-and-lying.html/comment-page-1#comment-65044 Patrick S. O'Donnell Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:21:47 +0000 http://www.concurringopinions.com/?p=19257#comment-65044 I think your concern is spot-on but I see no reason as to why one might not infer from this something about Stein's ethics (at least it shifts the burden of proof or alters any presumptive benefit of the doubt we may accord him in this regard). It's not uncommon in our time and place for individuals to boast of their belief in this or that vice or even a cluster of vices or publicly parade conduct contrary to virtuous behavior and ethical principles (it's not that it should be private, but its confinement to the latter realm suggests at least a sense of guilt or shame). It's symptomatic of an immature reveling in naughty behavior and in perfect accord with our ongoing yet dangerous fascination with a cultural norm of transgression for the sake of transgression. So, it's good of you to call the magazine out on this. The slippery slope may often function as an informal logical fallacy in arguments, but I think there's nothing fallacious about slippery slopes when it comes to our ethical lives. I think your concern is spot-on but I see no reason as to why one might not infer from this something about Stein’s ethics (at least it shifts the burden of proof or alters any presumptive benefit of the doubt we may accord him in this regard). It’s not uncommon in our time and place for individuals to boast of their belief in this or that vice or even a cluster of vices or publicly parade conduct contrary to virtuous behavior and ethical principles (it’s not that it should be private, but its confinement to the latter realm suggests at least a sense of guilt or shame). It’s symptomatic of an immature reveling in naughty behavior and in perfect accord with our ongoing yet dangerous fascination with a cultural norm of transgression for the sake of transgression.

So, it’s good of you to call the magazine out on this. The slippery slope may often function as an informal logical fallacy in arguments, but I think there’s nothing fallacious about slippery slopes when it comes to our ethical lives.

]]>