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	<title>Comments on: Against Economic Imperialism</title>
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	<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/07/the_happiness_g.html</link>
	<description>The Law, the Universe, and Everything</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel S. Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/07/the_happiness_g.html/comment-page-1#comment-48541</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel S. Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/07/against-economic-imperialism.html#comment-48541</guid>
		<description>Great post.  A.J., your comments are insightful, as usual.  FWIW, my thoughts:

http://www.medhumanities.org/2008/07/on-normative-co.html

Ironically, &quot;economic imperalism&quot; seems to have the odd effect of masking the normativity of the enterprise from its practitioners, such that the need to proffer normative justifications for positions taken is often, in my experience, either absent or simply assumed.  Sometimes we have moral obligations to act inefficiently.  The mere fact that an arrangement is in and of itself efficient says little, absent context, about whether we ought to pursue policy on that basis.

One wonders whether a deeper understanding of the value-laden nature of economics among practitioners would promote wider comprehension of the dangers of the naturalistic fallacy.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  A.J., your comments are insightful, as usual.  FWIW, my thoughts:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.medhumanities.org/2008/07/on-normative-co.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.medhumanities.org/2008/07/on-normative-co.html</a></p>
<p>Ironically, &#8220;economic imperalism&#8221; seems to have the odd effect of masking the normativity of the enterprise from its practitioners, such that the need to proffer normative justifications for positions taken is often, in my experience, either absent or simply assumed.  Sometimes we have moral obligations to act inefficiently.  The mere fact that an arrangement is in and of itself efficient says little, absent context, about whether we ought to pursue policy on that basis.</p>
<p>One wonders whether a deeper understanding of the value-laden nature of economics among practitioners would promote wider comprehension of the dangers of the naturalistic fallacy.</p>
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		<title>By: A.J. Sutter</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/07/the_happiness_g.html/comment-page-1#comment-48540</link>
		<dc:creator>A.J. Sutter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/07/against-economic-imperialism.html#comment-48540</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I was not as enthusiastic about Wolfe&#039;s review; he isn&#039;t as critical as he should be or even as you suggest in your post.

For one thing, he is too kind to Thaler &amp; Sunstein&#039;s &quot;Nudge,&quot; which is devoid of any notion of democracy; I&#039;ve commented in more depth on that book in an Amazon review, so I won&#039;t expand here. For another, Wolfe&#039;s comment that &quot;The social sciences are not just empirical; they are normative, too&quot; is a bit Pollyanna; often they are normative without being empirical at all (e.g. neoclassical economics). Rather than Wolfe being thoroughgoing or getting support from Nielsen, he fails to see one of Nielsen&#039;s points in the excerpt you quote.

A more significant issue is when he says &quot;[P]rice is measured ordinally: $100 is one hundred times greater than $1. But life satisfaction, by contrast, is measured cardinally: the extent to which &#039;very satisfied&#039; is better than &#039;satisfied&#039; has to be established arbitrarily.&quot; First of all, intransitive preferences (e.g., A&gt;B, B&gt;C and C&gt;A) occur in real life, but violate cardinality. But the deeper criticism is, why be chained to a quantitative view of life satisfaction? There is an excellent critique of &quot;arithromorphism&quot; in economics, the fallacy of cardinality of individual utility, and economics&#039;s neglect of qualities and dialectical concepts in the first four chapters of &quot;The Entropy Law and the Economic Process&quot; by Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen (Harvard U Press 1979).

You seem to allude to the notion of qualities too, if I correctly understand your comment about Elizabeth Anderson. But rather than echoing your lament of Kahneman&#039;s pro-measurement attitude, Wolfe regrets that Frey has abandoned it. Right after the discussion of Helen he says, &quot;Kahneman&#039;s essay was published almost a decade ago. Where are we now? If Frey&#039;s book is any indication, the revolution in economics has taken a giant step backward. Happiness, Frey tells us, need not be established objectively at all.&quot; Wolfe&#039;s concluding skepticism about whether behavioral economics really lives up to the claims of its enthusiasts is nice, but seems to be a kind of a bland, let&#039;s-be-reasonable compromise rather than a forceful position maintained throughout his piece.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I was not as enthusiastic about Wolfe&#8217;s review; he isn&#8217;t as critical as he should be or even as you suggest in your post.</p>
<p>For one thing, he is too kind to Thaler &#038; Sunstein&#8217;s &#8220;Nudge,&#8221; which is devoid of any notion of democracy; I&#8217;ve commented in more depth on that book in an Amazon review, so I won&#8217;t expand here. For another, Wolfe&#8217;s comment that &#8220;The social sciences are not just empirical; they are normative, too&#8221; is a bit Pollyanna; often they are normative without being empirical at all (e.g. neoclassical economics). Rather than Wolfe being thoroughgoing or getting support from Nielsen, he fails to see one of Nielsen&#8217;s points in the excerpt you quote.</p>
<p>A more significant issue is when he says &#8220;[P]rice is measured ordinally: $100 is one hundred times greater than $1. But life satisfaction, by contrast, is measured cardinally: the extent to which &#8216;very satisfied&#8217; is better than &#8216;satisfied&#8217; has to be established arbitrarily.&#8221; First of all, intransitive preferences (e.g., A>B, B>C and C>A) occur in real life, but violate cardinality. But the deeper criticism is, why be chained to a quantitative view of life satisfaction? There is an excellent critique of &#8220;arithromorphism&#8221; in economics, the fallacy of cardinality of individual utility, and economics&#8217;s neglect of qualities and dialectical concepts in the first four chapters of &#8220;The Entropy Law and the Economic Process&#8221; by Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen (Harvard U Press 1979).</p>
<p>You seem to allude to the notion of qualities too, if I correctly understand your comment about Elizabeth Anderson. But rather than echoing your lament of Kahneman&#8217;s pro-measurement attitude, Wolfe regrets that Frey has abandoned it. Right after the discussion of Helen he says, &#8220;Kahneman&#8217;s essay was published almost a decade ago. Where are we now? If Frey&#8217;s book is any indication, the revolution in economics has taken a giant step backward. Happiness, Frey tells us, need not be established objectively at all.&#8221; Wolfe&#8217;s concluding skepticism about whether behavioral economics really lives up to the claims of its enthusiasts is nice, but seems to be a kind of a bland, let&#8217;s-be-reasonable compromise rather than a forceful position maintained throughout his piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/07/the_happiness_g.html/comment-page-1#comment-48539</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/07/against-economic-imperialism.html#comment-48539</guid>
		<description>How is economics not &quot;honest and forthright?&quot; At its root, the study of economics basically says &quot;compare benefits to costs&quot; and provides a means of calculating social welfare under various choices. What is not honest about that?

If you mean that certain groups of economists ignore  costs that you find important (e.g. the cost to our pysche of being unfair or something of that nature), then you should say so. But there&#039;s nothing inherently wrong with using economics to measure welfare.

And even if you think particular economists omit value judgments that you find important, how can you characterize their work as dishonest? If anything, economics is the most honest of social sciences. An economist that decides to make a normative judgment must say: &quot;Option A is better than Option B because Option A&#039;s social welfare exceeds that of Option B. I know this because I calculated social welfare as follows.&quot;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is economics not &#8220;honest and forthright?&#8221; At its root, the study of economics basically says &#8220;compare benefits to costs&#8221; and provides a means of calculating social welfare under various choices. What is not honest about that?</p>
<p>If you mean that certain groups of economists ignore  costs that you find important (e.g. the cost to our pysche of being unfair or something of that nature), then you should say so. But there&#8217;s nothing inherently wrong with using economics to measure welfare.</p>
<p>And even if you think particular economists omit value judgments that you find important, how can you characterize their work as dishonest? If anything, economics is the most honest of social sciences. An economist that decides to make a normative judgment must say: &#8220;Option A is better than Option B because Option A&#8217;s social welfare exceeds that of Option B. I know this because I calculated social welfare as follows.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Kilborn</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/07/the_happiness_g.html/comment-page-1#comment-48538</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Kilborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/07/against-economic-imperialism.html#comment-48538</guid>
		<description>So how do we most effectively reorient our non-economic (or economic, for that matter) research and find a more &quot;open and notorious&quot; evaluative metric?  Is there a social scientific literature describing the array of metrics by which &quot;happiness&quot; or other social goals might be measured?  Is this hopelessly unfocused research?  I&#039;ve been plagued by these questions as I try to answer the simple question of whether (and to what extent, under what conditions, etc.) a discharge of consumer debt is good or bad.  I&#039;m still flustered.  At least this post makes me feel better about being flustered, but I would really prize some nice advice about where else to look for an evaluative metric that would be more convincing--or at least more honest and forthright--than economics.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how do we most effectively reorient our non-economic (or economic, for that matter) research and find a more &#8220;open and notorious&#8221; evaluative metric?  Is there a social scientific literature describing the array of metrics by which &#8220;happiness&#8221; or other social goals might be measured?  Is this hopelessly unfocused research?  I&#8217;ve been plagued by these questions as I try to answer the simple question of whether (and to what extent, under what conditions, etc.) a discharge of consumer debt is good or bad.  I&#8217;m still flustered.  At least this post makes me feel better about being flustered, but I would really prize some nice advice about where else to look for an evaluative metric that would be more convincing&#8211;or at least more honest and forthright&#8211;than economics.</p>
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