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	<title>Comments on: The Curiously Non-Ideological Debate over the &#8220;Falling Down Professions&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html</link>
	<description>The Law, the Universe, and Everything</description>
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		<title>By: JW</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49034</link>
		<dc:creator>JW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 04:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49034</guid>
		<description>A few points:

While the debate may be &quot;curiously non-ideological,&quot; it&#039;s somewhat odd to suggest that the trend emerged as either political decisions or economic determinism. To test this flimsily supported theory, you have to look back at the political forks in the road and ask whether they&#039;re but-for causes of the current decline of the middle class. We&#039;re in a skills-based economy. Might as well get used to it instead of pretending we can resurrect the past without immensely punitive tax and redistribution schemes.

Also, criticizing that evil Chicago school and the social darwinist right probably feels good, but claiming that enterpreneurs are going to suffer because the big corporations win the competitive battle due to pro-competitive antitrust laws is misguided. If they&#039;re merely offering a similar good or service which a larger corporation can provide more cheaply, that doesn&#039;t really strike me as entrepreneurship, but as poor business judgment. Consumer market tastes are becoming more particularized, consumers care about how their goods are produced more than ever before, and the internet has dramatically reduced geographic constraints to new market entrants. That we don&#039;t see more small business growth may suggest that we&#039;re not equipping the creative workforce with the right tools to be successful in the market.

Orin is exactly right that we need to look more at  whether we have the proper incentives for *creative* enterpreneurs instead of wringing our hands over whether everyone who earns a JD will be set for life. One labor market is undersupplied, one is oversupplied--zhouldn&#039;t we start there instead of jumping straight into the political arena?

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few points:</p>
<p>While the debate may be &#8220;curiously non-ideological,&#8221; it&#8217;s somewhat odd to suggest that the trend emerged as either political decisions or economic determinism. To test this flimsily supported theory, you have to look back at the political forks in the road and ask whether they&#8217;re but-for causes of the current decline of the middle class. We&#8217;re in a skills-based economy. Might as well get used to it instead of pretending we can resurrect the past without immensely punitive tax and redistribution schemes.</p>
<p>Also, criticizing that evil Chicago school and the social darwinist right probably feels good, but claiming that enterpreneurs are going to suffer because the big corporations win the competitive battle due to pro-competitive antitrust laws is misguided. If they&#8217;re merely offering a similar good or service which a larger corporation can provide more cheaply, that doesn&#8217;t really strike me as entrepreneurship, but as poor business judgment. Consumer market tastes are becoming more particularized, consumers care about how their goods are produced more than ever before, and the internet has dramatically reduced geographic constraints to new market entrants. That we don&#8217;t see more small business growth may suggest that we&#8217;re not equipping the creative workforce with the right tools to be successful in the market.</p>
<p>Orin is exactly right that we need to look more at  whether we have the proper incentives for *creative* enterpreneurs instead of wringing our hands over whether everyone who earns a JD will be set for life. One labor market is undersupplied, one is oversupplied&#8211;zhouldn&#8217;t we start there instead of jumping straight into the political arena?</p>
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		<title>By: A.J. Sutter</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49033</link>
		<dc:creator>A.J. Sutter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 17:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49033</guid>
		<description>I suspected as much ... on all three counts.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspected as much &#8230; on all three counts.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49032</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49032</guid>
		<description>to AJ:

1) duly noted. . . my rushed comment paints in broad strokes.

2. I take that approach re skepticism about economics (or at least a need to supplement it with other points of view), but I don&#039;t think many others do.

3. Just blog syntax!

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to AJ:</p>
<p>1) duly noted. . . my rushed comment paints in broad strokes.</p>
<p>2. I take that approach re skepticism about economics (or at least a need to supplement it with other points of view), but I don&#8217;t think many others do.</p>
<p>3. Just blog syntax!</p>
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		<title>By: A.J. Sutter</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49031</link>
		<dc:creator>A.J. Sutter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 13:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49031</guid>
		<description>1. Memo to law profs: not all of us practicing lawyers are in the plaintiff bar or defense bar, or make our living passing through courthouse doors. Some of us are helping entrepreneurs and small businesses, for example.

2. Maybe a reason for the nonideological tenor of the professional students&#039; laments is because they&#039;re fed the fiction that economics *is* a study of natural forces. If you&#039;re teaching law and economics to your students, do you go out of your way to tell them economics is a kind of applied politics (notwithstanding that its planes of cleavage don&#039;t necessarily match those of US party politics), rather than a science?

3. Apropos of David Cay Johnston, I haven&#039;t read his work, but are you suggesting that attorneys get tax breaks *for themselves* that smother the hopes of entrepreneurs? or was that just blog syntax?

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Memo to law profs: not all of us practicing lawyers are in the plaintiff bar or defense bar, or make our living passing through courthouse doors. Some of us are helping entrepreneurs and small businesses, for example.</p>
<p>2. Maybe a reason for the nonideological tenor of the professional students&#8217; laments is because they&#8217;re fed the fiction that economics *is* a study of natural forces. If you&#8217;re teaching law and economics to your students, do you go out of your way to tell them economics is a kind of applied politics (notwithstanding that its planes of cleavage don&#8217;t necessarily match those of US party politics), rather than a science?</p>
<p>3. Apropos of David Cay Johnston, I haven&#8217;t read his work, but are you suggesting that attorneys get tax breaks *for themselves* that smother the hopes of entrepreneurs? or was that just blog syntax?</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49030</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 22:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49030</guid>
		<description>OK: When you say &quot;we&quot; have too much clout, I&#039;m wondering who exactly the &quot;we&quot; is.  Those who&#039;ve prospered on the defense side working for big corporations might be included . . . and we should not forget David Cay Johnston&#039;s work on how well such corporations and attorneys get tax breaks and other competitive advantages that help them smother the hopes of the small entrepreneurs you celebrate.  (Let&#039;s also not forget the role of Chicago-style antitrust law that cares only about the fate of &quot;competition&quot; and not about survival of &quot;competitors&quot;--a development I&#039;m confident most on the Social Darwinist right applaud, but which has pretty bad consequences for many small businesses.)

As for the lawyers for people like Deborah Shank or Lily Ledbetter--I have a hard time characterizing them as having too much clout.

Of course, given the bimodal distribution of starting lawyer salaries that Bill Henderson has discussed, there&#039;s an important class overlay on the simple plaintiff/defense division I&#039;ve drawn.  But in the end what helps the plaintiff bar creates demand for the defense bar, so I feel it&#039;s accurate to describe lawyers as a group with some common economic interests.

MC: The class war has been on for a long time; the books I&#039;m citing are a belated call for its victims to organize a defense.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK: When you say &#8220;we&#8221; have too much clout, I&#8217;m wondering who exactly the &#8220;we&#8221; is.  Those who&#8217;ve prospered on the defense side working for big corporations might be included . . . and we should not forget David Cay Johnston&#8217;s work on how well such corporations and attorneys get tax breaks and other competitive advantages that help them smother the hopes of the small entrepreneurs you celebrate.  (Let&#8217;s also not forget the role of Chicago-style antitrust law that cares only about the fate of &#8220;competition&#8221; and not about survival of &#8220;competitors&#8221;&#8211;a development I&#8217;m confident most on the Social Darwinist right applaud, but which has pretty bad consequences for many small businesses.)</p>
<p>As for the lawyers for people like Deborah Shank or Lily Ledbetter&#8211;I have a hard time characterizing them as having too much clout.</p>
<p>Of course, given the bimodal distribution of starting lawyer salaries that Bill Henderson has discussed, there&#8217;s an important class overlay on the simple plaintiff/defense division I&#8217;ve drawn.  But in the end what helps the plaintiff bar creates demand for the defense bar, so I feel it&#8217;s accurate to describe lawyers as a group with some common economic interests.</p>
<p>MC: The class war has been on for a long time; the books I&#8217;m citing are a belated call for its victims to organize a defense.</p>
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		<title>By: Maryland Conservatarian</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49029</link>
		<dc:creator>Maryland Conservatarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 21:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49029</guid>
		<description>Ditto what Orin says...also, to the book list,  I&#039;d add  ECONOMIC FACTS AND FALLACIES  by the always excellent Thomas Sowell. Ok - technically not just about middle class anxiety but then again, what makes him excellent is that he is not peddling class warfare.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto what Orin says&#8230;also, to the book list,  I&#8217;d add  ECONOMIC FACTS AND FALLACIES  by the always excellent Thomas Sowell. Ok &#8211; technically not just about middle class anxiety but then again, what makes him excellent is that he is not peddling class warfare.</p>
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		<title>By: Orin Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/05/the_curiously_n.html/comment-page-1#comment-49028</link>
		<dc:creator>Orin Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 19:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2008/05/the-curiously-non-ideological-debate-over-the-falling-down-professions.html#comment-49028</guid>
		<description>Frank,

Maybe I&#039;m breaking the rules by speaking against the guild, but I would think that any forces that lessen the clout of lawyers is likely to be good for America.   We have too much influence and too much clout to be the subject of a great deal of concern, I think. Maybe I&#039;m just quirky, but I&#039;m much more interested in what forces are helping or hurting the small businesses and entrepreneurs in our society that create jobs than I am in what happens to my fellow attorneys.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank,</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m breaking the rules by speaking against the guild, but I would think that any forces that lessen the clout of lawyers is likely to be good for America.   We have too much influence and too much clout to be the subject of a great deal of concern, I think. Maybe I&#8217;m just quirky, but I&#8217;m much more interested in what forces are helping or hurting the small businesses and entrepreneurs in our society that create jobs than I am in what happens to my fellow attorneys.</p>
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