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	<title>Comments on: The Young and the Lawless</title>
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	<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html</link>
	<description>The Law, the Universe, and Everything</description>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html/comment-page-1#comment-56676</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2006/10/the-young-and-the-lawless.html#comment-56676</guid>
		<description>But some speedy driving really does kill people, whereas it&#039;s hard to see how any copyright infringement does that.

So perhaps the crimes involving money mentioned above are only different from copyright infringement as a matter of degree (though none of them seem to have the expressive implications I think so central to an understanding of copyright as a regulator of culture.)

But violations regarding guns or speeding really do involve risk of death--even if, as in your 5-minute shoveling example, that risk may be minuscule. So that really is a difference in kind.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But some speedy driving really does kill people, whereas it&#8217;s hard to see how any copyright infringement does that.</p>
<p>So perhaps the crimes involving money mentioned above are only different from copyright infringement as a matter of degree (though none of them seem to have the expressive implications I think so central to an understanding of copyright as a regulator of culture.)</p>
<p>But violations regarding guns or speeding really do involve risk of death&#8211;even if, as in your 5-minute shoveling example, that risk may be minuscule. So that really is a difference in kind.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Boyden</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html/comment-page-1#comment-56675</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Boyden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2006/10/the-young-and-the-lawless.html#comment-56675</guid>
		<description>Well, there&#039;s no driving component to expression, either.  Expression is irrelevant.  The question is whether a principled distinction can be drawn between widespread violations of law that are troubling, and those that are not troubling, that doesn&#039;t depend entirely on whether you think the law in question is just.  (I understood that to be the point of the end of your  initial post.)  I don&#039;t think there is such a distinction.

You could argue that my speed limit example is distinguishable because it increases the chance of physical harms, which are worse than mere monetary or intangible harms.  But I&#039;m not sure that by itself is a good criterion; one can imagine non-troubling but widespread violations of a law that reduces the risk of physical harm.  E.g., a law requiring sidewalks to be shovelled within the first 5 minutes of a snowstorm.  Or a speed limit of 5 mph on an ordinary divided highway.  So that doesn&#039;t work.

You could argue that not enough people violate speeding laws, but I don&#039;t think that would work as a factual matter.  You could argue that speeding laws are fairly simple, and disobediance of complex laws is less troubling, but my &quot;shovel within 5 minutes&quot; law is simple and untroubling; whereas tax laws are extremely complex, but widespread evasion seems troubling.

I don&#039;t see any way of distinguishing troubling from untroubling non-compliance, other than whether you think the law deserves to be followed.  Which is fine, if that&#039;s your argument, but you can&#039;t get any additional mileage from other features of copyright law that somehow make noncompliance &quot;less problematic.&quot;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there&#8217;s no driving component to expression, either.  Expression is irrelevant.  The question is whether a principled distinction can be drawn between widespread violations of law that are troubling, and those that are not troubling, that doesn&#8217;t depend entirely on whether you think the law in question is just.  (I understood that to be the point of the end of your  initial post.)  I don&#8217;t think there is such a distinction.</p>
<p>You could argue that my speed limit example is distinguishable because it increases the chance of physical harms, which are worse than mere monetary or intangible harms.  But I&#8217;m not sure that by itself is a good criterion; one can imagine non-troubling but widespread violations of a law that reduces the risk of physical harm.  E.g., a law requiring sidewalks to be shovelled within the first 5 minutes of a snowstorm.  Or a speed limit of 5 mph on an ordinary divided highway.  So that doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>You could argue that not enough people violate speeding laws, but I don&#8217;t think that would work as a factual matter.  You could argue that speeding laws are fairly simple, and disobediance of complex laws is less troubling, but my &#8220;shovel within 5 minutes&#8221; law is simple and untroubling; whereas tax laws are extremely complex, but widespread evasion seems troubling.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see any way of distinguishing troubling from untroubling non-compliance, other than whether you think the law deserves to be followed.  Which is fine, if that&#8217;s your argument, but you can&#8217;t get any additional mileage from other features of copyright law that somehow make noncompliance &#8220;less problematic.&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html/comment-page-1#comment-56674</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2006/10/the-young-and-the-lawless.html#comment-56674</guid>
		<description>But there&#039;s no expressive component to driving.  And I think that, even if there were, we&#039;d go to the social harms/benefits side, and the harms would be much less clear on the IP side than on the &quot;real world&quot; side. (For instance, Fred Yen&#039;s analysis of secondary liability of gun makers and P2P software writers suggests that a lot more harm is caused by the former than the latter.)

By the way, though the expressive dimensions of driving fast don&#039;t exhaust the issue, I really don&#039;t see it as part of a vibrant culture. It reminds me of the claim that gun-shooting was expressive, sidestepped in the case of GOAL v. Swift, 284 F.3d 198, 210 (2002):

&quot;First Amendment challenges to proscribed conduct usually require a two-step inquiry; first, assessing whether the proscribed conduct is sufficiently communicative to count as expression protected by the First Amendment, and secondly, whether the challenged law is content-neutral or content-based. However, a court may sometimes bracket the initial analysis, assume arguendo that the conduct is expressive enough to come within the ambit of First Amendment protection, and then complete the second inquiry.&quot;

Admittedly, the &quot;second inquiry&quot; here would permit both the copyright lockdown, and the speed limit, since both would likely be considered &quot;content neutral.&quot;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But there&#8217;s no expressive component to driving.  And I think that, even if there were, we&#8217;d go to the social harms/benefits side, and the harms would be much less clear on the IP side than on the &#8220;real world&#8221; side. (For instance, Fred Yen&#8217;s analysis of secondary liability of gun makers and P2P software writers suggests that a lot more harm is caused by the former than the latter.)</p>
<p>By the way, though the expressive dimensions of driving fast don&#8217;t exhaust the issue, I really don&#8217;t see it as part of a vibrant culture. It reminds me of the claim that gun-shooting was expressive, sidestepped in the case of GOAL v. Swift, 284 F.3d 198, 210 (2002):</p>
<p>&#8220;First Amendment challenges to proscribed conduct usually require a two-step inquiry; first, assessing whether the proscribed conduct is sufficiently communicative to count as expression protected by the First Amendment, and secondly, whether the challenged law is content-neutral or content-based. However, a court may sometimes bracket the initial analysis, assume arguendo that the conduct is expressive enough to come within the ambit of First Amendment protection, and then complete the second inquiry.&#8221;</p>
<p>Admittedly, the &#8220;second inquiry&#8221; here would permit both the copyright lockdown, and the speed limit, since both would likely be considered &#8220;content neutral.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Boyden</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html/comment-page-1#comment-56673</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Boyden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2006/10/the-young-and-the-lawless.html#comment-56673</guid>
		<description>Suppose I claim that a vibrant ability to drive 65 in 55 mph zones is conducive to individual liberty and a better culture overall.  Maybe I can even cite academic critiques of speed limits that say that.  It seems like you could spell out a similar story for any widespread instance of lawbreaking (e.g., tax evasion).  I think the difference is, you like those other laws, but copyright, not so much.  Therefore, it seems less harmful.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose I claim that a vibrant ability to drive 65 in 55 mph zones is conducive to individual liberty and a better culture overall.  Maybe I can even cite academic critiques of speed limits that say that.  It seems like you could spell out a similar story for any widespread instance of lawbreaking (e.g., tax evasion).  I think the difference is, you like those other laws, but copyright, not so much.  Therefore, it seems less harmful.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html/comment-page-1#comment-56672</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2006/10/the-young-and-the-lawless.html#comment-56672</guid>
		<description>Regarding the social utility point--yes, that&#039;s a good point in favor of rule utilitarianism generally!

Regarding civil disobedience: Well, I think the speeder has less of a claim.  Benkler, Netanel, Pessach and many others have (in my view) linked the &quot;free culture&quot; movement to extant critiques of the media (ala McChesney, Bagdikian, Christians, Mermin, etc.).   It seems to me that a vibrant &quot;remix culture&quot; is a good that conduces both to individual creativity and a better culture overall.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the social utility point&#8211;yes, that&#8217;s a good point in favor of rule utilitarianism generally!</p>
<p>Regarding civil disobedience: Well, I think the speeder has less of a claim.  Benkler, Netanel, Pessach and many others have (in my view) linked the &#8220;free culture&#8221; movement to extant critiques of the media (ala McChesney, Bagdikian, Christians, Mermin, etc.).   It seems to me that a vibrant &#8220;remix culture&#8221; is a good that conduces both to individual creativity and a better culture overall.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Boyden</title>
		<link>http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/10/the_young_and_t.html/comment-page-1#comment-56671</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Boyden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.solove.org/archives/2006/10/the-young-and-the-lawless.html#comment-56671</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s that distinguishable.  It&#039;s not clear for a lot of laws if anyone&#039;s being harmed by any given act.  Who&#039;s harmed if I go 65 in a 55 mph zone?  Who&#039;s harmed if I walk through someone&#039;s yard without permission?

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The added exposure from the unauthorized use may ultimately redound to the benefit of the copyrightholder.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;  And maybe there&#039;s a net social benefit if I drive 65 mph.  So?

&lt;i&gt;Moreover, some new IP laws seem so complex, and so alien to our ordinary experience of culture, that users appear to think of themselves as &quot;civilly disobedient.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;  Honest officer, I was just being &quot;civilly disobedient&quot;!

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s that distinguishable.  It&#8217;s not clear for a lot of laws if anyone&#8217;s being harmed by any given act.  Who&#8217;s harmed if I go 65 in a 55 mph zone?  Who&#8217;s harmed if I walk through someone&#8217;s yard without permission?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The added exposure from the unauthorized use may ultimately redound to the benefit of the copyrightholder.&#8221;</i>  And maybe there&#8217;s a net social benefit if I drive 65 mph.  So?</p>
<p><i>Moreover, some new IP laws seem so complex, and so alien to our ordinary experience of culture, that users appear to think of themselves as &#8220;civilly disobedient.&#8221;</i>  Honest officer, I was just being &#8220;civilly disobedient&#8221;!</p>
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