Given the chance to help, most would have done nothing.
Especially with us whose depression makes them unappealing, personality wise.

But them, they only seem to mourn those who “had such a great personality.”

that is all i have to say pardon my typos and spellign errors…i type super fast and i really dont care. as logn as you can read it then it is ok. btu i know there are anal idiots out there who woudl say what does this chick know she cant spell. bah on you.

pinkie out

You refusing to review yourself makes you lose a lot of credibility in my book. Being able to take in criticism and think about your actions and opinions in hindsight is a very important ability if you want to make personal progress. Also, who are you pretending to be?

Any reason in particular why you’re talking to me like I don’t understand what it is we’re doing here? Yes it’s an exchange of ideas, that’s the whole point. You might want to lose the patronizing attitude if you want to be taken seriously by the people you’re conversing with… We’re not doing a whole lot of exchanging here anyway since a large percentage of the discussion consists of a massive amount of overhead due to constant reiterations of previously stated opinions.

I’m not sure if you’re mistaken about how the reflex action system works or if you’re just saying it in a simple way. When you apply extreme heat to your hand, the reflex that makes the hand move “of it’s own accord” doesn’t take place in the hand. It takes place in the central nervous system, the spinal cord to be exact.

Also, I think you’re oversimplifying the way the “conscious” mind works. Some of it works on a conscious level, and some of it works by subconscious processes. There are techniques that allow you to direct these processes in a certain direction, but not to such an extent that you’re the undisputed master of how it works.

A disease like Tourette’s is a good example of this. Having an urge to move a limb so strong that it isn’t a choice anymore, or having to speak and hearing your tongue utter obscenities and calling someone a nigger even though you have no racist inclinations… Alien hand syndrome is another example of this. If a ball is thrown at your face, you will unwittingly react by deflecting it or catching it to defend yourself. This automatic process may get out of control and make your hand grab every doorknob it gets close to without you having any intention of doing so. Some people with AHS have no knowledge of what a hand is doing until it is brought to their attention. Try imagining something like Tourette’s or AHS for feelings or thoughts. That’s pretty much the definition of a lot of mental disorders, even depression. Not exactly a choice anymore now is it? Sure, we don’t know with 100% certainty how these things work, but we don’t know with 100% certainty how they don’t work either, whether you want this to be true or not.

I will let those be my last famous words and move on. It’s been quite an experience talking to you and I’ll be incorporating your words and outlook on the world in my future trains of thought. That’s how I profit from this, I hope you’ll do the same. That’s got to be the whole point of exchanging ideas, learning and making progress regardless of whether you come to an understanding with the person you’re doing the exchange with or not.

Best wishes =)

Now, on to other things. The process that occurs in between an EVENT and a FEELING is….(drum roll, please)….. THINKING. I’m suggesting that a person cannot have a feeling or an action without first having a THOUGHT about it. Well, except for those reflexes like when you put your hand on a hot stove, those motor impulses totally bypass the brain. One doesn’t have to think about it at all, the hand just moves of it’s own accord. But generally speaking, that is not how we humans operate in our daily lives.

Unless I am grossly mistaken, everyone in the world is entirely capable of CHOOSING what they are going to think about. Really, you can prove it right now. First, close your eyes and think about something really horrible, like the World Trade Center disaster. Now think about something wonderful… like eating chocolate. See? Easy as pie.

So everyone has a choice about what they are going to think about and how they are going to use their brain. Depressed people have very irrational thinking patterns which totally explains their depressed feelings and difficulty coping with normal life events. But that does not a chemical imbalance make. It just means yukky thoughts = yukky feelings.

If one can learn to think irrationally, one can also unlearn it and learn to think more rationally. Now, whether or not one CHOOSES to go through all this trouble and work to change their thinking is a whole other story. Aye, there’s the rub! Because it certainly IS a lot of trouble and work and most people don’t want to do it.

M Scott Peck does a wonderful job of explaining this principle in his book The Road Less Traveled. I forget what he calls it (entropy, maybe??) but he says there’s this force and it basically means that humans tend to do the least they can get away with. Emotional or spiritual growth consists of making a constant steady push against this force. But it’s a lot of hard work so not that many people do it. Hence it’s the road LESS traveled.

To me it seems very black and white, very anchored in the belief that anti-depressants should be abolished, and that you can only get better by helping others. It’s a pretty angry post that uses strong language in several places, and one that makes the whole depression treatment aparatus look like a big conspiracy theory concieved for the sole purpose of making money. Oh, and we treat our kids wrong by giving them anti-depressants. That’s what it says very clearly, and that’s why I objected in the first place and asked if that was really what you meant.

And now to answer your latest post…

When I say happy or sad because of this and that occurence or treatment, I mean increasing/decreasing happiness/sadness. I refer to the hypothetical absolute emotional zero with no positives or negatives, and whichever value a given treatment contributes to the number, however large or small. There are no absolutes in real life, and no magic “poof – you’re happy/sad” switch. It’s all shades of gray in my opinion.

What process is this that gives us a certain amount of choice and cotrol in the matters? If you think i’m saying that there’s nothing a depressed person can do to help themselves, you’re misunderstanding me. Just as it’s not purely biological though, it’s not purely a self-help issue either. Personally I believe that everything we experience resides in the brain, even what people would refer to as the soul. If medication helps, fine. If taking a long hard look at yourself in the mirror helps, fine. If helping out other people helps, fine. Different depressions in different people requires different treatments.

There may be no solid proof for the anti-depressants working, but does that mean it should be ruled out as a treatment possibility? I think there’s what you might want to call a good indication that it has positive effects in a lot of people. On others it doesn’t work at all, but that doesn’t make it an invalid solution. You can’t exactly prove that helping others is beneficial either. Actually, even calling a depression a depression is sort of misleading as it makes it seem like a very specific single disease, instead of many. Just like calling allergy a single specific disease would be. There are a huge amount of different causes for allergies, the end results often look similar though. The same can be said for depression. A large amount of stuff can be causing it, but you can’t really tell from the end result what is. Different treatments work on different people.

I’m not sure what the DMV-IV is, but I assume the answer to my question is yes. I guess you are able to empathize then, I just hope that whatever made you better doesn’t become the one and only treatment for depression in your mind. Different stuff helps different people, be it helping others, being social, religion, medication, or even believing you’re taking medication.

I’m depressed myself and I’m on anti-depressants. I’ve been through a load of different types now and they’re not helping me at all. It would’ve been nice if the pills were an easy fix for a difficult problem, but it just doesn’t work that way for me. I would describe my depression as circumstantial, not chemical. I’m not going to go into the details of why my circumstances make my life “less desirable”, but it certainly shows me that depression isn’t a choice. In my case, getting help is, and that’s why I’m doing what I can to try to find what works for me.

My own depression is one in a million, just like it is for everyone else. Different stuff causes depression for different people, and different stuff helps cure it for different people. Even though it is for some people, you will never see me supporting the idea of depression being a choice for everyone. That would be nothing short of presumptuous on behalf of every depressed person in the world.

I’d be willing to bet that we don’t agree on something because I don’t happen to believe that depression is purely a biological disorder. There’s not enough proof of that for me. If the psychological community were to be totally honest, they would have to admit they don’t really know what causes depression or a host of other mental disorders.

For instance, there is really no proof that depression is caused by low serotonin levels in the brain. Although most people think that statement is backed by solid, scientific evidence, it is not. There is actually no known way of measuring serotonin levels in the human brain of depressed people. Think about that for a minute. Now think about the millions of people who are convinced that they suffer from just such a chemical imbalance that has to be medicated for the rest of their lives.

Psychology and medicine both are inexact sciences, to be sure. There is as much or more evidence that points to psychological disorders being caused by one’s environment as by biology. Some believe nature and nurture are equally influential. It really all depends on one’s perspection and what one chooses to believe in (hint, hint-this is the answer to my earlier question).

As for your question if I have ever been depressed… throughout my whole life I have fit descriptions for several disorders, including depression, as described in the DMV-IV.

As for a choice, you take a pretty philosophical stance on the subject… Yes, you do have a choice in whether or not you try to get it “fixed” one way or the other. I don’t agree that getting the depression in the first place is a choice. Living through a tragedy like losing your kids and getting depressed subsequently isn’t a choice, just as having a neurological disorder like multiple sclerosis (which is known to cause depression) isn’t a choice. As I said, it doesn’t work like magic, it’s what happens in the 3 lbs of wires and chemicals in your head that makes people do what they do and feel the way they feel.

If you start working on it, you might be able to find the thing that fixes you and frees you of the depression, that makes it the right choice. Still, this is choosing whether you want to try and cure the depression, not if you want to be depressed in the first place.

Have you ever been depressed yourself if I can ask you that? I’m a firm believer that empathizing with people going through something you’ve never tried yourself is pretty darn hard, if not impossible.

As for # 1. You wrote, ” What happens when you experience joy from helping people is that the brain releases chemicals to make you feel good. The same thing happens ….when taking pills that raise these chemicals in the brain by artificial means. No matter how you have these chemicals released into the brain, you get the same sensation of happiness. It’s not magic that makes you happy, it’s biochemistry.”

So what I hear you saying (and correct me if I am wrong) is that doing good deeds helps alleviate depression in much the same way that SSRIs do. Actually, lots of things help alleviate depression. Other things that weren’t mentioned are meditation, prayer, cognitive behavioral therapy, or thinking positively. All these things affect moods, including depression. One very effective tools for battling depression (by fiddling with brain chemistry) is exercise. There is something else that has even been clinically proven in many antidepressant drug trials at reducing depression — placebos!

The bottom line is: it’s a matter of choice in how one goes about “treating” depression. Unfortunately, a lot of people with depression think they have no choice in the matter. It’s like they’ve been brainwashed into believing it’s a biological/genetic disease (when there is no proof of this and, as far as I know, no test that can measure any chemical imbalance in the brain.), that they have no control over it and they will have to take drugs for the rest of their lives to deal with it.

For # 2 – If good deeds (or even thoughts, since you can’t hardly do a deed without first thinking about it) make the brain chemistry such that one feels joy, then it should follow that bad deeds or thoughts also affect the brain chemistry and cause one to have bad feelings. So I hear you saying (and correct me if I am wrong)that what we do affects our brain chemistry. And since everyone has a choice about what they choose to think about or how they choose to act, depression and happiness is a choice. In other words… “Have a nice day — unless you made other plans.”

Also, I don’t see how helping other people out is the only thing that can bring happyness… What happens when you experience joy from helping people is that the brain releases chemicals to make you feel good. The same thing happens during sex, when watching a movie you like, after a job well done that you take pride in, or when taking pills that raise these chemicals in the brain by artificial means. No matter how you have these chemicals released into the brain, you get the same sensation of happiness. It’s not magic that makes you happy, it’s biochemistry.

Throw out the anti-depressants? Do you mean that they simply don’t work for anyone at all and that they have no real medical value? As in, depression isn’t a real disease that can come from chemical imbalances in the brain? I believe that people are in general being overmedicated by their doctors. A lot of people need to take a look in the mirror and stop moaning about the iPod they didn’t get for their birthday… It’s not all black and white though, I also firmly believe that antidepressants like SSRI’s and the like have a very relevant function in the people that have chemical imbalances.

Now just imagine what would happen if more people chose to reach out and help others instead. Nothing material can buy happiness–the only real happiness to be found in this world is in helping others. If more people chose to be of service to others instead of dwelling on what is wrong with their lives, why they aren’t happy or how they just can’t get out of the damn bed, the world would be a much better place. And you could throw away all the Prozac. But then the drug companies would go broke and people would actually have to start taking responsibility for their own shit….

Hmm…..nope, I can’t see that happening any time soon. An alarmingly increasing number of people would rather be dead or experience some kind of altered state of reality with alcohol, drugs or legal medications rather than honestly look at themselves in the mirror. What’s really sad is we medicate ourselves and even our kids if they don’t behave nice and neat and happy like we think they (and we) are supposed to be. Then they kill themselves and we wonder why…..

It’s funny how we focus on the unimportant things in life rather than why this girl took her life if she was so “happy” and how we prevent this from happening in the future.